It's weird, but I'm a lot better with religion than I was with it in high school and college... but it's things like this and people thinking that they can control a woman's choice that make me just choke. I've railed about this so many times, I almost get tired of it. =(
Exactly! That was my feeling too; it was so horrific, I couldn't even conjure up anything but shock and sickness. And then the outrage came later, which prompted a letter and the link being sent to everyone in my family.
Exactly. What else do you say about that? Do I rail about how fundamental religion (no matter what it is) can cause gross travesties? Do I argue about whether the US occupation of Iraq worsened the situation? Do I try to convey something coherent beyond outrage and sadness? Or is this just another futile post on LJ?
I debated at first whether to send the email to my family, because to be frank, some of them are really racist about people of Middle Eastern descent; they tend to think they're all terrorists-in-training and very backwards. I didn't know whether this would cement it or not... but at the same time, am I going to tie myself down with cultural implications at the loss of this woman's story? As a person, this was abhorrent. Which was what made me send it out.
This is the most sickening thing I have read for a long while. What I found to be the final kick in the stomach was that they dared examine her dead body for an intact hymen. Searching for that last little bit of "proof" that she "deserved" what she got.
And we caused this by going in there. We did, because before the occupation Iraqis had jobs and food and an existence too secure and safe to disrupt by committing murder. "Honour killings" happened, but not on this scale. Now nobody has anything to lose by making young girls the scapegoats for the community's problems, so they will continue to die and the community will regard it as something to feel proud of.
Poor Du'a. I hope she has peace now, and that her murderers will never have peace again.
The Iraqi people and those of the MIddle East have been killing women in this fashion for centuries. "We" had NOTHING TO DO WITH DU'A'S DEATH.
Please, for the love of Lilith, STOP BLAMING EVERY IRAQI DEATH ON THE U.S.
They were killing each other brutally before we got there, they will keep killing each other.
We're causing a shitload of problems, yes, but don't blame religeon-based murders on the U.S.
Okay, darlings, different culture. Yes, to us it is abhorrent. Yes, to us it is disgusting and we hate it. But to them, it is same-old, same-old. They are just NOW going through teh changes that lead to a "civilized" Western culture, and that is going to take decades more. Those men aren't going to change their beliefs overnight.
Have we forgotten the murder of Marie Antoinette and her ilk back in the day? She was a child, a naive, ignorant girl who was stuck in a position of power over an already unhappy people, so they beheaded her when they revolted.
In the United States, in Salem and surrounding areas, suspected "witches" were burned at the stake, drowned, and stoned to death, all for simple things like having red hair, or just having another person dislike you enough to accuse you of being one.
In our current society, we have innocent people on death row, we let murderers get away with their horrible crimes (OJ Simpson anyone? I'm sorry, that man is fucking guilty as hell), and we're no more tolerant today than we were 50 years ago. Sure, we're okay with black people now, but Gods forbid you are gay. Oh dear.
And oranges, how do you know they were searching for proof that she deserved it? Maybe they wanted to proove that she DIDN'T deserve it.
There is another cultural and spiritual devide.
NOt everyone believes in the sanctity of the human body after someone dies. We use them as specimines - I work for an IRB, and one study used "cadaver human head specimines" for testing a device that is inserted into the nasal cavity before testing it on people.
We exhume mummies and run tests on them, disturb their rest. We dig up ancient burial grounds and cover them with cement for parkig lots.
There are far worse things and those which are just as bad in our own back yard.
I think after all of this Iraq bullshit, I just want us to focus on our own home. The middle east has been the way it is for thousands of years, and isn't going to change. Not unless you erradicate every last fanatic religeous zealot from the region and leave only the pacifists behind; but that wouldn't be very civilized, now would it?
We're causing a shitload of problems, yes, but don't blame religeon-based murders on the U.S.
Well, I did point out - as that article did - that things have got a whole lot WORSE as a result of the upheaval:
Article: The subjugation of its women, however, has been largely ignored. Yet according to cultural observers, the number of so-called 'honour killings' has increased in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
Campaigners say there is an 'epidemic' of such killings in the wartorn country. Autopsy reports in Baghdad often conclude with the verdict: "Killed to wash away her disgrace."
This is what I mean by saying we caused it - we made things so damn unstable in that country that these girls bear the worst of it. Yes, it's religion-based and was going on before we went in there, but we stirred up the hornets' nest and made it a damn sight worse.
Have we forgotten the murder of Marie Antoinette and her ilk back in the day? She was a child, a naive, ignorant girl who was stuck in a position of power over an already unhappy people, so they beheaded her when they revolted.
Yes, she was an ignorant child, but I don't blame the people for blaming her when they revolted. Did she make any effort to help them? No? Off with her head! I don't believe she ever said "let them eat cake", but I have seen her little shepherdess's dwelling at Versailles, where she played. It's ever so cute - and nothing like how the starving French sheep-herders lived. The people who stormed the palace must have been appalled when they realized just how detached from reality she was.
Does this excuse murdering her? No, but you can see how ignorance on her part, combined with ignorance on the mob's, led to the final catastrophe. This is totally different from the families who kill their daughters out of a desire to possess/control them.
In our current society, we have innocent people on death row, we let murderers get away with their horrible crimes (OJ Simpson anyone? I'm sorry, that man is fucking guilty as hell), and we're no more tolerant today than we were 50 years ago. Sure, we're okay with black people now, but Gods forbid you are gay. Oh dear.
Yes, but at least we don't have an "epidemic" of Matthew Shepherd killings. We are a DAMN sight more tolerant than we were 50 years ago: Kevin Spacey and Jodie Foster may not be able to admit they're gay in public, but we do have programmes like "Queer Eye" and minor actors coming out as gay every few minutes. It's progress.
And oranges, how do you know they were searching for proof that she deserved it? Maybe they wanted to proove that she DIDN'T deserve it.
You're right, but even if her hymen HAD gone she didn't "deserve it". Finding the "proof" afterwards was just tacky, and gut-wrenching when one considers that if they'd only made the examination beforehand, she might not have had to die. Checking her out when she was dead was shutting the stable-door after the horse had bolted.
I think after all of this Iraq bullshit, I just want us to focus on our own home.
AMEN. I want us out of there now. And talking of "fanatic religious zealots", America already has enough of the Christian stripe for us not to cast the first stone ;)
I agree with this: "Honour killings" happened, but not on this scale.
The article mentioned that the spate of honour killings has jumped dramatically in recent years, and it's hard to ignore the fact that in recent years, another country invaded and at the moment, they're in the middle of a civil war. While there are definitely other factors (the general downturn of the whole world's economy, the correlation between less money = more unrest), I have to say that the violence in Iraq and the Middle East in general has worsened the situation.
... I want to say, happy people just don't kill people, but that'd be channeling my inner legally blonde girl.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 04:38 am (UTC)gosh I can't believe how savage humans can get over religion >
no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 05:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 05:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 05:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 06:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 05:57 am (UTC)That's why I swear by Slytherin and Hufflepuff. ;)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 06:23 am (UTC)I don't really know what else to say besides that.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 06:00 am (UTC)... er, I didn't mean to start flailing at you.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 06:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 06:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-18 09:31 am (UTC)And we caused this by going in there. We did, because before the occupation Iraqis had jobs and food and an existence too secure and safe to disrupt by committing murder. "Honour killings" happened, but not on this scale. Now nobody has anything to lose by making young girls the scapegoats for the community's problems, so they will continue to die and the community will regard it as something to feel proud of.
Poor Du'a. I hope she has peace now, and that her murderers will never have peace again.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-19 08:06 am (UTC)No, "we" did NOT cause Du'a's honor-bound murder.
The Iraqi people and those of the MIddle East have been killing women in this fashion for centuries. "We" had NOTHING TO DO WITH DU'A'S DEATH.
Please, for the love of Lilith, STOP BLAMING EVERY IRAQI DEATH ON THE U.S.
They were killing each other brutally before we got there, they will keep killing each other.
We're causing a shitload of problems, yes, but don't blame religeon-based murders on the U.S.
Okay, darlings, different culture. Yes, to us it is abhorrent. Yes, to us it is disgusting and we hate it. But to them, it is same-old, same-old. They are just NOW going through teh changes that lead to a "civilized" Western culture, and that is going to take decades more. Those men aren't going to change their beliefs overnight.
Have we forgotten the murder of Marie Antoinette and her ilk back in the day? She was a child, a naive, ignorant girl who was stuck in a position of power over an already unhappy people, so they beheaded her when they revolted.
In the United States, in Salem and surrounding areas, suspected "witches" were burned at the stake, drowned, and stoned to death, all for simple things like having red hair, or just having another person dislike you enough to accuse you of being one.
In our current society, we have innocent people on death row, we let murderers get away with their horrible crimes (OJ Simpson anyone? I'm sorry, that man is fucking guilty as hell), and we're no more tolerant today than we were 50 years ago. Sure, we're okay with black people now, but Gods forbid you are gay. Oh dear.
And oranges, how do you know they were searching for proof that she deserved it? Maybe they wanted to proove that she DIDN'T deserve it.
There is another cultural and spiritual devide.
NOt everyone believes in the sanctity of the human body after someone dies. We use them as specimines - I work for an IRB, and one study used "cadaver human head specimines" for testing a device that is inserted into the nasal cavity before testing it on people.
We exhume mummies and run tests on them, disturb their rest. We dig up ancient burial grounds and cover them with cement for parkig lots.
There are far worse things and those which are just as bad in our own back yard.
I think after all of this Iraq bullshit, I just want us to focus on our own home. The middle east has been the way it is for thousands of years, and isn't going to change. Not unless you erradicate every last fanatic religeous zealot from the region and leave only the pacifists behind; but that wouldn't be very civilized, now would it?
no subject
Date: 2007-05-19 09:37 am (UTC)Well, I did point out - as that article did - that things have got a whole lot WORSE as a result of the upheaval:
Article: The subjugation of its women, however, has been largely ignored. Yet according to cultural observers, the number of so-called 'honour killings' has increased in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
Campaigners say there is an 'epidemic' of such killings in the wartorn country. Autopsy reports in Baghdad often conclude with the verdict: "Killed to wash away her disgrace."
This is what I mean by saying we caused it - we made things so damn unstable in that country that these girls bear the worst of it. Yes, it's religion-based and was going on before we went in there, but we stirred up the hornets' nest and made it a damn sight worse.
Have we forgotten the murder of Marie Antoinette and her ilk back in the day? She was a child, a naive, ignorant girl who was stuck in a position of power over an already unhappy people, so they beheaded her when they revolted.
Yes, she was an ignorant child, but I don't blame the people for blaming her when they revolted. Did she make any effort to help them? No? Off with her head! I don't believe she ever said "let them eat cake", but I have seen her little shepherdess's dwelling at Versailles, where she played. It's ever so cute - and nothing like how the starving French sheep-herders lived. The people who stormed the palace must have been appalled when they realized just how detached from reality she was.
Does this excuse murdering her? No, but you can see how ignorance on her part, combined with ignorance on the mob's, led to the final catastrophe. This is totally different from the families who kill their daughters out of a desire to possess/control them.
In our current society, we have innocent people on death row, we let murderers get away with their horrible crimes (OJ Simpson anyone? I'm sorry, that man is fucking guilty as hell), and we're no more tolerant today than we were 50 years ago. Sure, we're okay with black people now, but Gods forbid you are gay. Oh dear.
Yes, but at least we don't have an "epidemic" of Matthew Shepherd killings. We are a DAMN sight more tolerant than we were 50 years ago: Kevin Spacey and Jodie Foster may not be able to admit they're gay in public, but we do have programmes like "Queer Eye" and minor actors coming out as gay every few minutes. It's progress.
And oranges, how do you know they were searching for proof that she deserved it? Maybe they wanted to proove that she DIDN'T deserve it.
You're right, but even if her hymen HAD gone she didn't "deserve it". Finding the "proof" afterwards was just tacky, and gut-wrenching when one considers that if they'd only made the examination beforehand, she might not have had to die. Checking her out when she was dead was shutting the stable-door after the horse had bolted.
I think after all of this Iraq bullshit, I just want us to focus on our own home.
AMEN. I want us out of there now. And talking of "fanatic religious zealots", America already has enough of the Christian stripe for us not to cast the first stone ;)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-21 06:11 am (UTC)The article mentioned that the spate of honour killings has jumped dramatically in recent years, and it's hard to ignore the fact that in recent years, another country invaded and at the moment, they're in the middle of a civil war. While there are definitely other factors (the general downturn of the whole world's economy, the correlation between less money = more unrest), I have to say that the violence in Iraq and the Middle East in general has worsened the situation.
... I want to say, happy people just don't kill people, but that'd be channeling my inner legally blonde girl.